Let's talk healthcare

[needmorepower]

I don't want this to be about pointing fingers and one political party vs. another, or one president vs. another, but let's face it, our healthcare system is pretty much a disaster and has been for a long, long time.

-Every year, approximately 640,000 U.S. citizens go bankrupt due to medical bills they can't afford.
-If you don't have health insurance, it costs you far more for a procedure than what an insurance company would pay for the same procedure if you had health insurance.
-There are somewhere around 25 million people who have no healthcare coverage at all.
-Medical procedures and prescription drugs are often 2, 3, or even 10+ times more expensive (hello, Daraprim) than what the same procedures or drugs cost in other Westernized countries around the world.
-Medical malpractice is so rampant that it might be the third leading cause of death in the U.S., behind heart disease and cancer.
-We are ranked 43rd. in the world for life expectancy.
-Our healthcare system is ranked at #37 globally; nowhere near the top.
-Despite all of the above, the U.S. government spends almost double what any other country in the world spends on healthcare, per capita.
-It is considered to be one of the, if not the, most wasteful systems in the world.

Clearly, there is room for much improvement. Where do we go from here?

 

[slow94]

Free healthcare? Then the people actually have to care about helping instead of making a ton of money.

 

[bumperquip]

Socialized healthcare is a nice idea and it's been shown in other countries that it can work.

However, an effective socialized system requires two things that have been proven can't happen here in the U.S. ...

1. Significant increase in taxes specifically encumbered and protected for the purpose funding the healthcare system;

2. The responsible and un-abused use of those increased tax dollars by both the government authorities and the healthcare providers.

Can't/won't happen here.

 

[SA94Lightning]

All I know is that for 7yrs we heard repeal n replace when we(r) have control.
Now we have H, S, majority and the WH. Still get nothing done.
So in 2yrs you in mid terms will likely loose control senate and will have a flip of it all in 4.

As far as "fixing" it well we have all seen how well they fixed it and every other social program.

Should of left the system alone and rained in all the overcharging drug companies etc.

The health care in US is top notch. It is the system of providers that is jacked up.

If I knew how to fix it Id let yall know.


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[maverick]

Free healthcare? Then the people actually have to care about helping instead of making a ton of money.

This, but greed gets in the way.

 

[sstock]

Health care would have a chance if we took away all the lawyers that try and bilk the providers through malpractice suits. Remember doctors practice medicine.

 

[needmorepower]

Free healthcare? Then the people actually have to care about helping instead of making a ton of money.

Well technically it can't be free, right? The money has to come from somewhere.

Socialized healthcare is a nice idea and it's been shown in other countries that it can work.

However, an effective socialized system requires two things that have been proven can't happen here in the U.S. ...

1. Significant increase in taxes specifically encumbered and protected for the purpose funding the healthcare system;

But does it really though? I've heard that too, but if we're already spending almost double what any other country spends on healthcare per capita, how is there not more than enough tax dollars already being collected, if we just had a more efficient system?

2. The responsible and un-abused use of those increased tax dollars by both the government authorities and the healthcare providers.

Yeah, that's a big problem, isn't it? Especially with the Supreme Court's Citizen's United decision, where corporations are now "people" and can "donate" as much money to politicians (aka bribe) as they want through super PAC's. That one really pissed me off. Where are the politicians who are fighting for us?

Can't/won't happen here.

Do you think it would be worth fighting for, or is it a lost cause? If it's a lost cause, what else can we do?

 

[needmorepower]

All I know is that for 7yrs we heard repeal n replace when we(r) have control.
Now we have H, S, majority and the WH. Still get nothing done.

Yeah. So frustrating. Then again, with this secret healthcare bill they just tried to pass, I'm not sure I wanted them to succeed anyway! If it's so good, why can't we see it?

So in 2yrs you in mid terms will likely loose control senate and will have a flip of it all in 4.

This is my feeling as well.

As far as "fixing" it well we have all seen how well they fixed it and every other social program.

Should of left the system alone and rained in all the overcharging drug companies etc.

That would help a lot. I'm lucky I don't need any medications or anything because, for example, in the U.S. the blood clot med Xarelto is $320, but in the U.K., which is where it is the next most expensive, it's $126. WHAT???

The health care in US is top notch.

They tell us this all the time, and I think we're being lied to, because if it's top notch, why don't we have the highest life expectancy, and why is life expectancy actually going down in some parts of the country? Why does it force so many people into bankruptcy every year? Why are there so many people left out of the system who can't get the help they need? Why is there so much malpractice? If we're paying twice as much as everyone else, shouldn't it be twice as good as everyone else's? :headscratch: If it's as good as we're told it is, why are we ranked at #37 in the world, behind countries like Saudia Arabia (#26) and the United Arab Emirates (#27)? That's frickin' embarrassing!!

If I knew how to fix it Id let yall know.

Get on it, Don!

This, but greed gets in the way.

How do we get the greed out of the system? Start with Citizen's United, maybe?

Health care would have a chance if we took away all the lawyers that try and bilk the providers through malpractice suits. Remember doctors practice medicine.

Can you expand on that, Steve? I think George Bush Jr. passed a law that prevented people from suing their doctor's for malpractice or something, didn't he? Is this still going on?

 

[IVSVS]

All I know is that for 7yrs we heard repeal n replace when we(r) have control.
Now we have H, S, majority and the WH. Still get nothing done.
So in 2yrs you in mid terms will likely loose control senate and will have a flip of it all in 4.

As far as "fixing" it well we have all seen how well they fixed it and every other social program.

Should of left the system alone and rained in all the overcharging drug companies etc.

The health care in US is top notch. It is the system of providers that is jacked up.

If I knew how to fix it Id let yall know.

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Lol. I don't think an effective replacement program could be put together in the next 3.5 years let alone 6 months.
One of the reasons nothing is getting done is there was nothing prepared. The R's have been touting repeal for the last 7 years to get reelected. They had nothing to roll out when Trump was elected because they expected Clinton to win. To now for them to just throw something together just for the sake of a campaign promise would be just irresponsible and doomed to failure as we have seen.

 

[Raymond_B]

Man I am impressed that you guys are having a civil, pragmatic discussion about this. I knew I liked this forum I will add my .02, doctors, hospitals, insurance, and big pharmaceuticals are to blame. And sadly no matter which political party tries to "fix" health care those big lobbyists are going to be all over DC even more than they are now. It's going to take a LOT of pissed of people to override them.

But if I were going to fix it, I think I'd start with reigning in drug prices and letting Medicare negotiate prices. I do like the idea of requiring medical insurance. I know these ideas lean to the left with more regulations, but hell most states require at least basic liability in order to drive. So why not health insurance? I'll tell you what influences my opinion on that the most. My wife works at a large children's hospital and has friends who work at the county hospital. What irks me to no end is all these people who use county hospital emergency rooms for all their needs because they do not have insurance (people on both sides do this). Or they take their kids to the children's hospital because they know there's a policy of no refusal. In the end who pays for that? Yep, the rest of us... So yeah required basic insurance that gave people basic care and preventive care would help in addition to the other changes. That way even if we stayed with privatized health care it wouldn't be so damn expensive.

 

[bumperquip]

Do you think it would be worth fighting for, or is it a lost cause? If it's a lost cause, what else can we do?

It's my personal opinion, Ken, that it's a lost cause.

I don't think I'm copping out either.

I'm a bit of a follower/observer of history. If you look back, as far as documented history goes, things have always been the same.

Technology changes, social make-up, structure and organization change ... people don't.

We just don't have the ability to maintain a true democracy or a true socialist system.

Money, self promotion, corruption and graft always, always, ALWAYS, enters the formula.

We do not live in a democracy.

We live in an oligarchy or perhaps a plutocracy.

Don't forget that.

 

[SA94Lightning]

Yeah. So frustrating. Then again, with this secret healthcare bill they just tried to pass, I'm not sure I wanted them to succeed anyway! If it's so good, why can't we see it?

And I quote one Nancy Pelosi 7 yrs ago.

"We have to pass it to see whats in it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hV-05TLiiLU

Worked for their team.

But when the players on YOUR OWN TEAM are fighting AGAINST YOUR EVERY MOVE you wont get much done.


Oh and McCain showed me what I already knew he is a RINO.

As are about 10 or so others with an R





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[SA94Lightning]

It's my personal opinion, Ken, that it's a lost cause.

I don't think I'm copping out either.

I'm a bit of a follower/observer of history. If you look back, as far as documented history goes, things have always been the same.

Technology changes, social make-up, structure and organization change ... people don't.

We just don't have the ability to maintain a true democracy or a true socialist system.

Money, self promotion, corruption and graft always, always, ALWAYS, enters the formula.

We do not live in a democracy.

We live in an oligarchy or perhaps a plutocracy.

Don't forget that.

Its a RICHMOCRACY.
if you have the $$ and influence you have the power.




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[needmorepower]

Lol. I don't think an effective replacement program could be put together in the next 3.5 years let alone 6 months.
One of the reasons nothing is getting done is there was nothing prepared. The R's have been touting repeal for the last 7 years to get reelected. They had nothing to roll out when Trump was elected because they expected Clinton to win. To now for them to just throw something together just for the sake of a campaign promise would be just irresponsible and doomed to failure as we have seen.

Yeah, I think that's a really good assessment of what just happened.

Man I am impressed that you guys are having a civil, pragmatic discussion about this. I knew I liked this forum

Indeed. And I think this issue has no political boundaries. Both parties are to blame for this mess, and we are all in the same boat. Fighting each other over important issues like this just because someone voted a certain way does nothing to help any of us. It's not R's vs. D's, it's us regular people vs. the people who have bought our elected officials in both parties.

I will add my .02, doctors, hospitals, insurance, and big pharmaceuticals are to blame. And sadly no matter which political party tries to "fix" health care those big lobbyists are going to be all over DC even more than they are now. It's going to take a LOT of pissed of people to override them.

I agree. I know I'm pissed. How about you?

But if I were going to fix it, I think I'd start with reigning in drug prices and letting Medicare negotiate prices. I do like the idea of requiring medical insurance. I know these ideas lean to the left with more regulations, but hell most states require at least basic liability in order to drive. So why not health insurance? I'll tell you what influences my opinion on that the most. My wife works at a large children's hospital and has friends who work at the county hospital. What irks me to no end is all these people who use county hospital emergency rooms for all their needs because they do not have insurance (people on both sides do this). Or they take their kids to the children's hospital because they know there's a policy of no refusal. In the end who pays for that? Yep, the rest of us... So yeah required basic insurance that gave people basic care and preventive care would help in addition to the other changes. That way even if we stayed with privatized health care it wouldn't be so damn expensive.

That's true, too. Medicare should definitely be allowed to negotiate drug prices, and some further regulation would definitely be required to force the healthcare costs down, because even if every single adult had health insurance, I doubt the insurance companies would voluntarily reduce their ridiculous profit margins in exchange for more customers. They would just gladly accept the additional customers, and keep charging what they charge now and make even more money than they already are, and then turn around and use the extra profits for even more bribing of our elected officials.

 

[needmorepower]

It's my personal opinion, Ken, that it's a lost cause.

I don't think I'm copping out either.

I'm a bit of a follower/observer of history. If you look back, as far as documented history goes, things have always been the same.

Technology changes, social make-up, structure and organization change ... people don't.

We just don't have the ability to maintain a true democracy or a true socialist system.

Money, self promotion, corruption and graft always, always, ALWAYS, enters the formula.

We do not live in a democracy.

We live in an oligarchy or perhaps a plutocracy.

Don't forget that.

Yeah, it's pretty sad that this country was founded to escape oppression, and here we are again, being oppressed by a bunch of greedy a-holes. I feel like the divide between the R's and the D's is so wide right now, even though we all have a lot in common, like this healthcare thing, that we may not be able to solve these problems with either of those parties and maybe we should all start voting Independent or something. I dunno. Something has to be done, though. And voting for the same old in both parties isn't working for any of us.

And I quote one Nancy Pelosi 7 yrs ago.

"We have to pass it to see whats in it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hV-05TLiiLU

Worked for their team.

Yeah, it was wrong then, and it's wrong now. Just goes to show how both parties don't work for the people in any meaningful capacity, which is why I don't want this thread to be about one vs. the other, but instead to find the common ground and see what everyone thinks can/needs to be done.

But when the players on YOUR OWN TEAM are fighting AGAINST YOUR EVERY MOVE you wont get much done.


Oh and McCain showed me what I already knew he is a RINO.

As are about 10 or so others with an R

I haven't heard anything beneficial about this bill yet, but do you think that we would be better off if it had passed? Or if the ACA had been repealed?

Its a RICHMOCRACY.
if you have the $$ and influence you have the power.

Yeah, that's basically what a Plutocracy is. A government that is run by the wealthy and benefits them, and not so much the rest of us.

 

[SA94Lightning]

Better Off I dunno.
I preferred it prior to ACA myself.
What NEEDS to be done is reign in all the drug companies and excessive overcharges.

My kid can break an arm and I go to a do with him.
Insurance?
Yes? Setting/cast will be 1500.00
Insurance?
NO.
We can set it and put him in a cast for 500 if your paying cash.

Why?
Because doc is pd on spot doesnt have to pay staff to do pwk and wait 6mo for money.

It happened a few yrs back with step son.


Just like that.

So the main problem in health care is not the CARE.

It is the layers of bs.

In 1985 I had an HMO through my work.
Cost me about 10/wk
Pd 25 doc visit for my pregnant wife on 1st visit
That was IT until the little sucker emerged in to the world.
Today that same thing would be several thousand dollars.



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[bumperquip]

A word of advice for everyone else who's fed-the-f**k-up ... ... Iceland.

 

[needmorepower]

Better Off I dunno.
I preferred it prior to ACA myself.

What was it that you liked better before the ACA?

What NEEDS to be done is reign in all the drug companies and excessive overcharges.

My kid can break an arm and I go to a do with him.
Insurance?
Yes? Setting/cast will be 1500.00
Insurance?
NO.
We can set it and put him in a cast for 500 if your paying cash.

Why?
Because doc is pd on spot doesnt have to pay staff to do pwk and wait 6mo for money.

It happened a few yrs back with step son.

Just like that.

So the main problem in health care is not the CARE.

It is the layers of bs.

I wonder if those prices were a lie to get them to pay cash or something. Or maybe the insurance deductible was higher than the out-of-pocket cost. I watched this episode of Adam Ruins Everything and it says the hospitals have fake prices for people with no insurance. Give it a watch if you'd like to be angry all over again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeDOQpfaUc8

In 1985 I had an HMO through my work.
Cost me about 10/wk
Pd 25 doc visit for my pregnant wife on 1st visit
That was IT until the little sucker emerged in to the world.
Today that same thing would be several thousand dollars.

Ridiculous. So what are your thoughts on a single payer system, basically Medicare for all?

A word of advice for everyone else who's fed-the-f**k-up ... ... Iceland.

As in, move there, or as in, emulate them? :frog:

 

[O'doyle]

A word of advice for everyone else who's fed-the-f**k-up ... ... Iceland.

I HATE the cold.... Assuming that is, it's cold in Iceland.

 

[IVSVS]

I HATE the cold.... Assuming that is, it's cold in Iceland.

Iceland is a relatively mild climate due to sitting smack dab in the middle of the Gulf Stream.