Captainmorg
Active member
discuss.
water/meth injection w/ a turbo
- Thread starter Captainmorg
- Start date
Pretty much the same idea as with a blower. Some reduction in CC and EG temperatures, some increase in effective octane.
I personally wouldn't bother with it on an intercooled vehicle, though I know some people are. I just think you start to walk the ragged edge when you tune for that outer limit.
Non-intercooled, though, I think it's a great idea.
I personally wouldn't bother with it on an intercooled vehicle, though I know some people are. I just think you start to walk the ragged edge when you tune for that outer limit.
Non-intercooled, though, I think it's a great idea.
airtroop01
Active member
I ran the Snow kit with my supercharged combo and I am running it with the Turbo. It works great. If anything I think you've got an added edge of safety if you're running pump gas with your combo.
Captainmorg
Active member
My intent was never to account for an increase in octane. However, I like the idea of being able to increase timing due to temp drops. I was curious if temp improvements with a turbo would be greater, lesser or on par with a supercharger.
Does the snow kit inject before or after the IC?
Does the snow kit inject before or after the IC?
airtroop01
Active member
Captainmorg said:
I inject before the throttle body and after the turbo.
Temp improvement with a turbo is already better than a supercharger. You're going to get even addl. benefits with a turbo because less of the mix is flashing for heat reasons and more will be available to be burned off as extra octane.
Looking at some of the turbo buick forums, a lot of them inject before the turbo to help spool it up faster. There was a lot of debate early on whether that would hurt the turbo but now, many of them accept it as fact that its a safe thing to do.
If I was interested in a kit, I would either go with Snow Performance- cause they put out the "SafeInjection" unit which could be of high value. (but I really hate the nylon lines) or the alkycontrol.com kit... they make a great kit and even better customer service.
gasguzzler
Grasshoppa'
The Buick guys usually run it to allow them more boost on pump gas (along with a little more timing). I think what your horsepower goals are in relation to your engine/intercooler combination will have a big factor as in to whether or not I'd use it. I prefer to just use an intercooler for many reasons.
airtroop01
Active member
Oh, make no mistake... I'm not saying to run an methanol/alcohol system instead of an intercooler. However, in addition to, there are more benefits than just cooling air that you get out of a kit like that.
Captainmorg
Active member
Frank5L said:
Hmm, I always thought of it as cooling quicker rather than burning colder. Basically, alcohol conducts heat much quicker than air so it would dissipate heat quicker (in the intercooler) than without. Perhaps I should read into it again.
airtroop01
Active member
Captainmorg said:
Alcohol absorbs heat, it doesn't conduct it.
Captainmorg
Active member
airtroop01 said:
This is semantics I assure you. There are three methods for heat to be transferred: conduction, convection, and radiation. For it to simply absorb heat it would have to be at a lower temperature. When it does absorb heat (like when you poor alcohol on your arm) it will most likely and efficiently be done via conduction.
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airtroop01
Active member
Oh, I wasn't trying to be a smart @ss when I typed it.
But, not quite a semantic idea to me.
Conduction is the process of losing heat through physical contact with another object or body while evaporation or 'flashing' is the process of losing heat through the conversion of liquid to gas. If the alcohol just took the heat out of the heads and transferred it to the air, I'd say okay. Or if it took the heat out of the air and went out the exhaust, I'd say okay.
But in this case the alcohol particles are injected at such a fine mist and flash in the air. The process of evaporation is really what makes this thing work. That doesn't mean I'm saying that no conduction probably doesn't also take place... but that's not what I think is giving the biggest gain.
Again, not trying to be a smart @ss.
But, not quite a semantic idea to me.
Conduction is the process of losing heat through physical contact with another object or body while evaporation or 'flashing' is the process of losing heat through the conversion of liquid to gas. If the alcohol just took the heat out of the heads and transferred it to the air, I'd say okay. Or if it took the heat out of the air and went out the exhaust, I'd say okay.
But in this case the alcohol particles are injected at such a fine mist and flash in the air. The process of evaporation is really what makes this thing work. That doesn't mean I'm saying that no conduction probably doesn't also take place... but that's not what I think is giving the biggest gain.
Again, not trying to be a smart @ss.
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Captainmorg
Active member
removed - because I'm tired and asking the same question again.
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camcojb
Active member
My two cents. With the turbo your IAT2's should be less, probably noticeably so versus a blower. I still like the alky idea though as it will still allow more timing/boost on pump gas than without it. And that means more power. If it was a race tune I wouldn't use the alky myself, I always had it shut off in the race tune. You have plenty of octane in that case and you eliminate one variable.
Jody
Jody
airtroop01
Active member
I've drawn a lot of the turbo buick folks. In fact, talking with them has been a good experience. To be able to take a 6 cylinder motor and run 24 psi on pump gas says a lot about one's ability to tune and overcome a lot.
If you want a better discussion, call Julio at www.alkycontrol.com
While his website is not as snazzy as Snow Performance's, he's helped quite a few people with high horsepower goals - including Parish - who used the alky control kit on his 1000 hp turbo truck.
But, hopefully Julio will give you the answers you are looking for since I'm unable to help.
If you want a better discussion, call Julio at www.alkycontrol.com
While his website is not as snazzy as Snow Performance's, he's helped quite a few people with high horsepower goals - including Parish - who used the alky control kit on his 1000 hp turbo truck.
But, hopefully Julio will give you the answers you are looking for since I'm unable to help.
Captainmorg
Active member
mhays26 said:
I wasn't getting frustrated, I said I was tired and asking the same question again. Not tired of asking the same question. Airtroop had already answered it, but I am curious about the fundamentals of it. It's the damn engineer in me that keeps me too curious for my own good.
This post has been rather informative for me.
camcojb
Active member
Captainmorg said:
The basics are that water is a better heat absorber than alky. But alky gives some heat benefits, some octane improvement, and in the case of the Grand National and Syclone guys that are on the end of their injector, some added fueling.
Some recommend mixing the two for the most benefit, ratio depending on whether you need the extra octane or more temp reduction. Both do most of their work in the combustion chamber in my opinion, not so much dropping air temps. There is some reduction in air temps, but in the chamber pulling the excess heat out is a bigger benefit.
Previously I've always used straight water and had excellent results with it. With the Lightning though the instant boost of a roots or screw blower didn't seem to work as well (as far as detonation) with water added to the mix. My previous cars were all centrifugals. In other words I could run more timing with straight alky than if I started to add water to the mix. These are my results and I've heard others who had different results, so you need to try it both ways yourself and see which works best for your combo.
I am now doing a twin turbo GTO and even though the motor is specifically for turbos with low compression, all-aluminum, and intercooled I'll still be running alcohol injection. Too many benefits with pump gas, especially the 91 octane crap we get here.
Jody