Z7What

I cant answer that question. Detonation has alot of factors. IAT2 Temp, Load, Timing, Fuel, Air/Fuel, compression ratio, etc...

Wayne

__________________

2003 F-150 FX4 Powered by 2003 Lightning Engine #2005
AFCO H/E With Fans, Killer Chiller, Ported Throttle Body, Ported Plenum, Ported C&L Elbow,
Metco Idlers, 4# Lower Pulley, Bosch 255LPH Fuel Pump, 90MM MAF, NGK TR6, FTVB
K&N Filter, EGR Delete, Flex-A-Lite EFans, 170* T-Stat, JLP Street Reseroir
Tuned By Wes @ Total Performance Solutions
331RWHP/411RWTQ On 38's
Best 1/4 14.569@ 90.84MPH
Best 60' 2.08

white01

No, you should see 14.7-15.5 at that speed. Its when you roll into WOT you should see your wideband drop to 11.xxx.

Rich

autenb

Good. VERY good. I'll have to do some datalogging once I have my street tune installed here in a few hundred miles.

lightningkylej

INCORRECT. No matter the fuel, your AFR wideband will read the same as it does with any other fuel if you do not reprogram the wideband to use a different stoich value for the different fuel. It does NOT care what fuel is in the vehicle it only reads the amount of oxygen is in the exhaust. It will take more fuel with alcohol based fuels than on petroleum based fuels to achieve the same reading on a wideband programmed for gasoline. I am on full E85 and my wideband has the same conversion from lambda to gasoline that most widebands come with from the factory--it is just a normal AEM wideband. So, when I tune, I want to see somewhere between 12.8 to 13.2 AFR or something similar to what a race fuel tune would have. The amount of fuel I am commanding is much greater than gasoline, but the wideband should read the same.

As for the tune:
When you have you tune to run an 11.712 on non-ethanol fuels and put in E10 your wideband will read a little leaner. Somewhere around 12 to 1 (depends on the actual blend of ethanol to gasoline in the E10--the reason why the signs say up to 10%). If you plan on using only ethanol blended fuels, then tune your wideband to read the same AFR as you would use for straight gasoline; i.e. 11.712 AFR reading on your wideband. It will take a couple % more fuel to achieve the same reading on your wideband.
To explain using your example above, you have a gasoline tune with an AFR of 11.712 at WOT. Now you retune to the ethanol blend fuel to achieve an AFR of 11.264. Now instead of adding 4% more fuel to maintain your AFR of 11.712, you added 8% more fuel and essentially richened up the tune and killed a little power.

rtkjadams

I did notice that my WB is reading alittle leaner then it use to before the E10 fuels..... It is actually reading 12.0 - 12.1 WOT now..... So would I be fine if I got it back to the 11.7 ???

Ray

lightningkylej

Ethanol is a great octane booster. Are you running the 93 octane E10? If so and if you are not detonating and the plugs are coming out great, then you should be OK.

91 Probe GT

do you know what the numbers are for unleaded 91 octane e10? That's the best i can get where i live.

__________________
99 black Lightning 2.3L Kenne Bell with a ton of bolt-ons, and stock motor 496/620 on Mustang dyno.12.786@104.495 8.15@85.601 FL6U3.2TWPEMVIJXZ
1991 Ford Probe GT 1/4mile: 12.02@108mph 12.06@118mph

lightningkylej

If it says 91 octane and up to 10% ethanol, then it is probably much less than 10% ethanol. Most of the real E10 that I have used actually says "E10" at the pump with a stated octane of 93. I would just tune for 91 octane to be safe.
Here in Oklahoma, we have ethanol blended fuels with up to 10% ethanol but only 91 octane, however, it is not the best fuel nor is the non-ethanol fuels we have around here. That is why I run E85 and just take the hit on fuel economy.

91 Probe GT

What all would a guy have to do to convert and run e85? anything special a guy needs or is it just a matter of pumping more fuel in to compensate for the extra ethonal? Our pumps claim 91 octane with the e10. I have a predator tuner, and my maf extender is only on number 2 right now. I think I have 50lb injectors running a 2.3l kb. Can a guy make more power with a good tune on e 85? I would assume so beings it has a higher octane rating.

__________________
99 black Lightning 2.3L Kenne Bell with a ton of bolt-ons, and stock motor 496/620 on Mustang dyno.12.786@104.495 8.15@85.601 FL6U3.2TWPEMVIJXZ
1991 Ford Probe GT 1/4mile: 12.02@108mph 12.06@118mph

Don 95Vert

Great discussion! I do have a couple things to add that may make everyone's life a little easier.

It's really, really wise to get a wideband that also reads Lambda. That way you don't ever have to worry about doing some kind of conversion. Because no matter what fuel you are running, the stoich point will always be Lambda 1.0 - and you'll always know that your target lambda will be right. For instance if you are targeting an 11.5 A/F ratio and you want the equivalent A/F ratio with an alcohol fuel, all you do is log Lambda on the meter and look for around 0.79 Lambda and all will be good. As mentioned the 02 sensor doesn't 'care' about A/F ratio - putting it simply it's 'native' language is lambda. The A/F readings you see are based on internal calculations done within the wideband which you a reading for gasoline.

The other thing to consider is, as mentioned, E85, ain't always E85 - in fact here in Ohio, it varies by season, so you may get E60, E70 or maybe E92 sometimes. You never know. And virtually ALL gas nowadays is at least E10, sometimes it's posted on the pump, sometimes it's not.

To be really sure, and on a vehicle tuned on the edge, I always use Zeitronix's new nifty tool - an Ethanol content analyzer - you have to also buy a flex fuel sensor, but it works really well and is a must here up north.

Hope this helps,

Don LaSota

lightning25

i'm back to ask another question.

So when i was tuned, using mostly sunoco 93 in the tank, maybe a bit of ultra 94, all "up to 10% ethanol" my a/f was left at 11.7ish. back home when i am racing, using only ultra 94 "with up to 10% ethanol" i have datalogged my a/f at just over 12, sometimes 12.2, but can vary each race from 11.6-12.2 during a sinlge pass, and some passes it stays below 12 on the same night.

basically what i'm asking is should i be worried, or re-tuning for a bit lower of an a/f?

Sean

lightningkylej

All I do is pump more fuel. In fact, I had my tuner set my Mafia on setting #3 on the pump gas tune. When I put in the E-85 I change the setting to #2 and it runs pretty well like that. My pump gas tune is near 11.0 and the E-85 tune is high 12's to low 13's.
I haven't had a change to strap it back on the dyno to see what the before and after is. However, I have seen turbo cars pick up 10% more power with the E-85 conversion, with the timing and target AFR the SAME! (600 whp 2.0L on 110 to 660 whp on E85).
That being said, if you are comparing the max safe power on pump gas with the max safe power on E85, then yes you can make alot more power. At the least, compare the E85 to leaded race fuels for a power comparison. More boost, timing, and a leaner AFR all means more power and is very dooable on E85.

lightningkylej

It all depends on boost, compression, and timing. As long as you are not detonating, then you will be fine. I suggest you pull the plugs after a full quarter and see how they look. If they are not any specks on them, then you should be fine.

lightningkylej

Thanks for helping make my point. The reason I say to tune your wideband to the same as your gasoline tune is because most people understand 11.8 AFR not .8 lambda.

lightning25

so i have another question then.
when i hooked up my a/f ratio gauge, and when i was tuned, the air fuel gauge was never changed for the fuel i was using, the "up to 10% ethanol" ultra 94. we just hooked it up and changed the configuration in the computer and went for a few test runs to obtain an a/f of 11.7.
so would my a/f have been wrong from the start and will me tune be off then?
i'm sure this was already stated, but how do i go about making sure i have the right a/f reading on my gauge for the fuel i am using.

Sean