HELP! Rough idle and dealer says "They all do that"

01-04-2002, 09:27 AM

OK, so I bring my bone-stock 2001 L (4500 miles) in for a service appointment to diagnose my vibration at idle.

(For those who don't remember my original post, the #6 fuel injector blew and ever since there has been an oscillating "buzz" or vibration while the L is idling in "D" gear. I can feel it best through the steering wheel, pedals, and doors, and it gets worse as the engine warms up. Popular culprits included vacuum leak, PCV, or bad plug.)

So anyway, the dealer eliminates the PCV or any vacuum leak because they claim the "check engine" light would have come on immediately. They then hook up the Ford diagnostic computer and show me the power balance graphs. At idle and at part throttle, all of the cylinders were within a reasonable range, with an occiasional 10-15 RPM drop on #5 every few seconds. They are convinced I'm feeling the #5 miss slightly, but I try to explain that it's a constant BUZZING vibration and not a miss or lumpy idle. They replace the #5 plug anyway (gapped to .044), and ask me to come test it again. OF COURSE it feels exactly the same. And the graphs are the same too, except the #5 cylinder isn't dropping off as much.

Basically, the dealer says there's nothing else that can be done - "it's a high performance engine" and they are not tuned to be smooth. I explained that if it was like this when I bought it, I wouldn't mind as much, but it purred like a kitten before the injector failed and it has been buzzy ever since. We even compared it to another Lightning which had more miles and was much smoother, but they insisted it was comparing apples and oranges because that L had an open filter and Bassani cat-back. Fine.

After observing my frustration with the team leader, my mechanic pulled me aside and said I had a couple options. He could order new coil packs, but he didn't think they would help. Or he suggested I change the stock plugs for NGK's.

1. What should I do now? Should I get a 2nd opinion?

2. Should I dump the stock plugs for NGK's even though I have less than 5000 miles on them?

3. Is .044 a good gap for a stock 2001 L?

4. Most importantly, does anyone else feel a buzzing sensation and vibration at idle while in "D?" It's bad enough to cause ripples in your coffee, and if you swing your door open, you can really feel it at the edge. I really can't believe they ALL do that, especially since mine didn't for the first couple thousand miles.

5. Could any permanent damage have ocurred because of the bad injector? (The L was only driven 1/4 mile when missing and was promptly towed afterward).

------------------

Ben ('01 Bolt)

[This message has been edited by BMWBig6 (edited 01-04-2002).]

01-04-2002, 10:50 AM

For what it's worth, my '99 with just under 19K miles idles smooth as silk. I am however bone stock. Let them get it right! Just my $02

------------------
99.5 White
Snug Lid bed cover
Bed Rug
'86 4-Runner, daily driver

01-04-2002, 11:15 AM

Never hurts to get a second opinion.

01-04-2002, 12:35 PM

Going to try and get a 2nd opinion this afternoon... will post findings here later.

01-04-2002, 02:30 PM

I 'disabled' my L's PCV valve recently checking for something else. I pulled the PCV out of the cam cover and put a rubber 'cap' over the end of the valve to seal it off(still attached to the tube that connects to the intake plenum) and fitted an air filter to the cam cover. The point I'm making is that there was NO CHECK ENG. LIGHT for the two days(about 120 miles of driving) that the PCV was inoperative. I'm not saying that the PCV is the culprit, just that the S/M may not know what he is talking about.........?

Dan

------------------
NLOC # 695-2001 Lightning, Confederate gray/silver, built on 04/25/01(a Wednesday-Yes!), bot/picked up on 05/08/01, dynojet nos.: rwhp--388.7, rwtq--467.9, best e/t 12.791 @ 106.59, 11/16/01, 4,760lbs., 15,505 miles

Made possible by: PSP, Johnny Lightning, JDM, LFP, & M/T.

01-05-2002, 01:07 PM

Well, you guys were all right. I went and got a 2nd and 3rd opinion yesterday. First I stopped by another dealership and pulled in by the service dept. As I was talking to the very pleasant service writer about the next available appointment, the head tech came out of the garage and introduced himself. He seemed very fond of Lightnings so I tossed him the keys. He got in my L, fired it up, and immediately proclaimed "This thing has a miss." He revved it up a little, put it in D, then turned it off shaking his head. I explained how the other dealer thought it was "normal" behavior, and he couldn't believe they would let me take my car home running like this. He said it was obviously not running right, no matter what the diagnostic computer said. We chatted for a bit and he told me he'd be happy work on it for me, but he recommended I try my original dealer one more time, since he doesn't like "cleaning up other people's messes" anyway. Said goodbye and left, glad that someone else didn't think I was imagining things.

Next I stopped by my independent Porsche shop. These guys spend most of their time tuning their customers' race cars (including two Speedvision Challenge GT3s!), but they are more than qualified to look at Fords too. (The head tech tows his race car with a Gen 1 Lightning, and the others all have F-350's, Exploders, and one guy just bought a Bullit Mustang). Anyway, they dropped what they were doing to greet me when I pulled in, and when I rolled my window down everyone said "What's wrong with your truck? Sounds like it's missing!" Just the confirmation I needed. I explained my situation to them as well and the head tech took my Lightning around the block and said it was definitely missing in top gear while going up a hill (slight load), and that it was very obvious when he started it up (it almost DIDN'T start). They agreed it wasn't a "full" miss (we all know what running on 7 cylinders feels like), but that one of the cylinders was definitely lagging or limping along. They suggested I take it back to the dealer and give them hell. One thing that worried them was when I told them about the injector failing and how the L had difficulty starting and driving up the flatbed tow truck. The L barely started (sputtered a lot) and bucked the whole way - gasoline fumes everywhere. My friends thought there was a small chance of hydro-lock, and something inside may have been bent (like a valve, etc).

I have made another appointment with my original dealer for Wednesday. I'm going to insist that they forget their new-fangled computer and go back to the basics they learned 20 years ago. I'll update you all on my progress then. Thanks again for all of your help.

------------------

Ben ('01 Bolt)

[This message has been edited by BMWBig6 (edited 01-05-2002).]

01-04-2002, 09:27 AM	#1 (permalink)
BMWBig6 Guest Posts: n/a View this user's gallery iTrader: / %	HELP! Rough idle and dealer says "They all do that" OK, so I bring my bone-stock 2001 L (4500 miles) in for a service appointment to diagnose my vibration at idle. (For those who don't remember my original post, the #6 fuel injector blew and ever since there has been an oscillating "buzz" or vibration while the L is idling in "D" gear. I can feel it best through the steering wheel, pedals, and doors, and it gets worse as the engine warms up. Popular culprits included vacuum leak, PCV, or bad plug.) So anyway, the dealer eliminates the PCV or any vacuum leak because they claim the "check engine" light would have come on immediately. They then hook up the Ford diagnostic computer and show me the power balance graphs. At idle and at part throttle, all of the cylinders were within a reasonable range, with an occiasional 10-15 RPM drop on #5 every few seconds. They are convinced I'm feeling the #5 miss slightly, but I try to explain that it's a constant BUZZING vibration and not a miss or lumpy idle. They replace the #5 plug anyway (gapped to .044), and ask me to come test it again. OF COURSE it feels exactly the same. And the graphs are the same too, except the #5 cylinder isn't dropping off as much. Basically, the dealer says there's nothing else that can be done - "it's a high performance engine" and they are not tuned to be smooth. I explained that if it was like this when I bought it, I wouldn't mind as much, but it purred like a kitten before the injector failed and it has been buzzy ever since. We even compared it to another Lightning which had more miles and was much smoother, but they insisted it was comparing apples and oranges because that L had an open filter and Bassani cat-back. Fine. After observing my frustration with the team leader, my mechanic pulled me aside and said I had a couple options. He could order new coil packs, but he didn't think they would help. Or he suggested I change the stock plugs for NGK's. 1. What should I do now? Should I get a 2nd opinion? 2. Should I dump the stock plugs for NGK's even though I have less than 5000 miles on them? 3. Is .044 a good gap for a stock 2001 L? 4. Most importantly, does anyone else feel a buzzing sensation and vibration at idle while in "D?" It's bad enough to cause ripples in your coffee, and if you swing your door open, you can really feel it at the edge. I really can't believe they ALL do that, especially since mine didn't for the first couple thousand miles. 5. Could any permanent damage have ocurred because of the bad injector? (The L was only driven 1/4 mile when missing and was promptly towed afterward). ------------------ Ben ('01 Bolt) [This message has been edited by BMWBig6 (edited 01-04-2002).]

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01-04-2002, 10:50 AM	#2 (permalink)
FASTRK99 Guest Posts: n/a View this user's gallery iTrader: / %	For what it's worth, my '99 with just under 19K miles idles smooth as silk. I am however bone stock. Let them get it right! Just my $02 ------------------ 99.5 White Snug Lid bed cover Bed Rug '86 4-Runner, daily driver

01-04-2002, 11:15 AM	#3 (permalink)
tarheelbball412 Guest Posts: n/a View this user's gallery iTrader: / %	Never hurts to get a second opinion.

01-04-2002, 12:35 PM	#4 (permalink)
BMWBig6 Guest Posts: n/a View this user's gallery iTrader: / %	Going to try and get a 2nd opinion this afternoon... will post findings here later.

01-04-2002, 02:30 PM	#5 (permalink)
LIGHTNINROD Guest Posts: n/a View this user's gallery iTrader: / %	I 'disabled' my L's PCV valve recently checking for something else. I pulled the PCV out of the cam cover and put a rubber 'cap' over the end of the valve to seal it off(still attached to the tube that connects to the intake plenum) and fitted an air filter to the cam cover. The point I'm making is that there was NO CHECK ENG. LIGHT for the two days(about 120 miles of driving) that the PCV was inoperative. I'm not saying that the PCV is the culprit, just that the S/M may not know what he is talking about.........? Dan ------------------ NLOC # 695-2001 Lightning, Confederate gray/silver, built on 04/25/01(a Wednesday-Yes!), bot/picked up on 05/08/01, dynojet nos.: rwhp--388.7, rwtq--467.9, best e/t 12.791 @ 106.59, 11/16/01, 4,760lbs., 15,505 miles Made possible by: PSP, Johnny Lightning, JDM, LFP, & M/T.

01-05-2002, 01:07 PM	#6 (permalink)
BMWBig6 Guest Posts: n/a View this user's gallery iTrader: / %	Well, you guys were all right. I went and got a 2nd and 3rd opinion yesterday. First I stopped by another dealership and pulled in by the service dept. As I was talking to the very pleasant service writer about the next available appointment, the head tech came out of the garage and introduced himself. He seemed very fond of Lightnings so I tossed him the keys. He got in my L, fired it up, and immediately proclaimed "This thing has a miss." He revved it up a little, put it in D, then turned it off shaking his head. I explained how the other dealer thought it was "normal" behavior, and he couldn't believe they would let me take my car home running like this. He said it was obviously not running right, no matter what the diagnostic computer said. We chatted for a bit and he told me he'd be happy work on it for me, but he recommended I try my original dealer one more time, since he doesn't like "cleaning up other people's messes" anyway. Said goodbye and left, glad that someone else didn't think I was imagining things. Next I stopped by my independent Porsche shop. These guys spend most of their time tuning their customers' race cars (including two Speedvision Challenge GT3s!), but they are more than qualified to look at Fords too. (The head tech tows his race car with a Gen 1 Lightning, and the others all have F-350's, Exploders, and one guy just bought a Bullit Mustang). Anyway, they dropped what they were doing to greet me when I pulled in, and when I rolled my window down everyone said "What's wrong with your truck? Sounds like it's missing!" Just the confirmation I needed. I explained my situation to them as well and the head tech took my Lightning around the block and said it was definitely missing in top gear while going up a hill (slight load), and that it was very obvious when he started it up (it almost DIDN'T start). They agreed it wasn't a "full" miss (we all know what running on 7 cylinders feels like), but that one of the cylinders was definitely lagging or limping along. They suggested I take it back to the dealer and give them hell. One thing that worried them was when I told them about the injector failing and how the L had difficulty starting and driving up the flatbed tow truck. The L barely started (sputtered a lot) and bucked the whole way - gasoline fumes everywhere. My friends thought there was a small chance of hydro-lock, and something inside may have been bent (like a valve, etc). I have made another appointment with my original dealer for Wednesday. I'm going to insist that they forget their new-fangled computer and go back to the basics they learned 20 years ago. I'll update you all on my progress then. Thanks again for all of your help. ------------------ Ben ('01 Bolt) [This message has been edited by BMWBig6 (edited 01-05-2002).]