skidmarkracing

I have been using the sniper for a bit now and here is what I have concluded:

I really like this software. It is not as easy to navigate as SCT, but everything there once you are through the learning curve. It is very straight forward and everything has a definition.

Now here is what I find very cool. I open the special forces software and answer the basic questions, less that a minute later I have a base file that is pretty darn close I may add. I take that base file flash the car and start my tuning. Now if it is just a base style car with bolt ons, you can do a pull and log everything. Then make minor changes in the special forces software. If you need to dig deeper or do a custom tune, you can open the file with the delta force software and fine tune it from there.

Now we all have used several of the different software packages, some we like more than others. I really like the sniper setup. Tech support is very good as well. When I first started with it, I had a lot of questions. Patrick never hesitated to get right back with me and get the issues resolved. The options they have available are very cool as well. The AFR monitor is the greatest thing since canned beer. Very good price and the logging is incredible. Unlike others where you have to buy an innovative product and rpm converter etc. We wont even mention the new LiveWire fiasco. If you visit there site you can get screen shots of the products. The datalogging is tops. I have a laptop setup on a stand and their screen shot with gauges and graphs.

For those of you thinking of going the PRP route, you may want to consider the sniper product.

Moderators etc.
I am not promoting this software, nor do i sell it. I am just letting folks know that they have options over the PRP from SCT

Justin00Stang

I have seen the sniper software, they have some neat ideas, currently I do not own it or use it (not saying this in a negative way).

My thoughts on special forces, it is way too over simplified. A modified vehicle can not be properly tuned that way IMO, too many tables need to have all 99 points adjusted, renormalized and looked over by a tuner.

I am a control freak though, I like to know exactly what I am changing and what it effects.

I think a proper base tune from an experienced tuner is a much better solution for the guys that want to tune at home. I don't believe in successful tuning can be based off drop down menus.

rhynotune

I've never not once seen a noticeable improvement in a tune by renormalizing any of the tables. As it pertains to Lightnings and HD's, you don't need to renormalize anything. The gain in 39% load that blends the table is effectively useless. The more important, and relevant debate is how do you know it doesn't? By your own admission you don't use that, and by every possible due of respect, you don't know just how powerfull Special Forces is.

The Special Forces descriptions are pretty accurate. As accurate as they need to be. To the end user, what part of the stabilized open loop (your base open loop) is changed is pointless as long as they get the desired result.

That's a fairly contradictory statement, the guys that want a generic, value file based mail order tunes can have them, the guys that want powerfull, simple to use software to more finitely (sp) tune their vehicle have that option but they both don't fit the same shoe. And successful tuning can be achieved by a drop down menu. The Special Forces can make a file every bit as powerful and as safe as anything you can do with A3, and realistically, faster. As it pertains to pulley'd trucks, I've tested all the possible different combinations on the dyno, and everyone of them made equivalent 'dyno tuned' power with an extra ounce of safety. As it pertains to highly modded trucks, theres a turbo Lightning on here with a Sniper 3000 (more precise version of the SCT 3000) and a Sniper Interface. It made a hair under 800 RWHP, drives perfect, and it's still running the Special Forces tune LOL. The only change made was some barometric pressure settings.

I'm not here to create conflict however I am here to clear up any perceptions you have. It's more powerfull then you think.

Just some input from a fellow SCT Calibrator as well

Edit: I really do mean this to be a meaningful - positive debate should a reply arise, nothing against you at all.

Justin00Stang

I have tuned high HP Lightnings where renormalization is important, and it's critical for a Mustang that did not come factory supercharged. I have customers that like to change boost, a properly set up spark table allows them to do this without the need for a different tune.

When I saw the software they were using the global spark adder to account for some timing changes, not a good way to tune IMO. Timing should be based on load and RPM, not on a global adder. I have a centrifugally supercharged mustang that runs MBT timing on pump gas up to 4500rpm regardless of a 3.6" or 2.62" pulley, beyond 4500rpm the timing requirements can vary from 21-22* for the 7psi pulley down to 10-12* for the 15psi pulley. With a proper spark table one tune can work on a multitude of pulley combinations. A tune for this vehicle could not be created with drop down menus.

We both know that the Sniper 3000 maf and the SCT 3000 maf are the same thing, its funny that you call one more precise than the other.

When it comes down to it, a bolt on Lightning with a stock blower is not too difficult to tune. However, when you want to improve that customer's gas mileage, or build a towing file, drop down menus aren't going to cut it.

__________________
Justin Starkey
VMP Tuning - Central Florida Lightning & Ford Dynotuning - mail order tuning with SCT
Mobile Dynojet 224x with Load Control
Phone: 321-206-9369
Email: justin@vmptuning.com
2007 Shelby GT500 691RWHP on pump & 708RWHP on race gas with TVS Blower and VMP mods
2000 Mustang 3.8 A4 TT 450RWHP/475RWTQ @ 17psi, 10.996@127 1.7 60ft @ 17psi stock 3.8
2006 F250 CC 4x4 6.0L 14.3 @ 93
2006 Mustang 4.0 M5 Vortech 15psi 395RWHP/374RWTQ wife's car

rhynotune

I've never really seen a high HP Lightning be under 200% load. Most of the time since you scale the airmass to have the correct loads you aren't ever gonna achieve being able to correctly tune for 16 PSI and 20 PSI you know that. If your talking about bolt on pulley trucks running 4 and 6 PSI then ya your probably correct, but I tune conservative enough that I don't need to sacrifice bottom end to achieve the same ultimate result.

Would you mind explaining how it's based on a global adder? All it is +1, +2, degrees the borderline table. Mind telling me just how much different that is then adding 1-2 degrees straight across to the borderline table? It's still based off of load and RPM... No one is going to be able tell the slight difference, and if they do, they like it over completely changing the borderline table. By doing it the global way, you maintain all of the stock timing table and transistions. It's basically a stock table with a little increase (for octane) which is the best way to do it IMO

Again I don't think you can really tune from 16 PSI and 20 PSI and maintain all of the driveability your trying to keep. I don't know why your so hung up on drop down menus? By you own admission, you've never seen the software and you haven't used it so you don't know what in all of the functions, scalars, and tables its changing. And I mean come on, if you select 2400 it inputs the 2400 transfer function and changes everything the EXACT same way loading an SCT value file. I just think it's inaccurate to think that a drop down menu program can't make a proper tune, but loading generic files provided by SCT and mailing them out is any better.

I don't think we see eye to eye on that. We know the barrel size is different obviously SCT advertises a 90MM and Sniper does not. SCT still to this day does not have the exact accurate 3000 kg/hr transfer function. Dealers are still being told to use a 2800 value file which is the same as the generic 2800 drop down menu tune SF creates. There's a huge difference in the accuracy of the two, as well, I've never gotten a flow sheet in an SCT meter.

I really just have to laugh, what exactly is it that you do that is so much different then what SF does?

MMShaggy

Actually Sniper has many options, unless I mis-read your statement.

Low RPM Fuel Modifier
Mid RPM Fuel Modifier
High RPM Fuel Modifier
Low RPM Spark Modifier
Mid RPM Spark Modifier
High RPM Spark Modifier
Global Spark Modifier
Global Fuel Modifier PT
Global Fuel Modifier FT

What more would you need?

__________________
5/14/08

Justin00Stang

You just proved my point, fuel is not primarily based on RPM in a ford mass-air EEC. Its based on airflow.

You can tune fuel based on RPM, but thats how the hacks did it in the past using WOT fuel multipliers and now the base fuel table since ford got rid of the WOT multiplier in 01/02. If you hack the tune the load will be wrong, and thus spark will be wrong. Not having the right spark is a very bad thing that can result in poor driveability, very poor gas mileage, and if you have too much at WOT engine failure.

Justin00Stang

I've got data to prove otherwise. I have a customer with a TT lightning that can run 12psi or 16psi and the tune is set up to adjust timing automatically, based on load.

Scaling load should not be done, if you are using a good wideband in the proper location (before cat) then your transfer function and load will be correct, once you make the actual a/f = commanded. This is tuning 101.

Once again, blanket adjustments don't work when you are dealing with heavily modified combinations. Did you know that a 4v head has different spark requirements than a 2v head.

Once again, I have data to prove otherwise, I've done it before.

I have seen the sniper software, it was demonstrated to me by the owners of sniper.

When I tune I do not just load generic value files and go. I start from a proven file that i have used before, make changes based on mods, collect data, and actually custom tune the vehicle. Other sct dealers may be just loading value files but thats what seperates the tooners from the tuners.

The SCT unit uses the same machined alum housing as the Sniper unit, and they are both made by the same company. They may have slightly different curves, but that does not mean that one is less accurate when they are made by the exact same people. LOL.

I can build a proper file from scratch for any combination. Would you know what to do if someone came to you and there was no option for a turbocharged SVT focus in the drop down menus? or no option for a 5.4 4v? There is a way to make it work, and then there is the right way to do it. When you tune the wrong way you compromise driveability and fuel economy. I do not have a problem creating a proper tune by using my own knowledge and going beyond value files and menus.

I think the biggest fallacy out there is that some people believe tuning is very simple. If that was the case more people would be doing it, and I would not be re-tuning so many vehicles.

rhynotune

Let's see that data, but more importantly there is a tremendous difference between 12 and 16. Additionally, I originally tuned that vehicle and looked over my datalogs. I imagine parts and pieces have been changed, but my logs show 200% load at about 4 volts.

If scaling load shouldn't be done, then Diablo, and SCT are both wrong? They both require the scaling of the airmass scalar. Some more than others.



Yes I am aware of this, as the efficiency of the head increases the ignition timing lead will decrease. But seeing how Ford also knew this when they made the calibration they have already taken that into account so yes a "blanket"(as you called it), will work.

You brought this up, and so did Chris, and from what I was told you were shown Special Forces. Obviously, you weren't shown anything further than that. Let's keep that on top of the facts.

As do I. However the point is what is so different between a value file, either supplied by SCT or the ones you start from and Special Forces. If they change the borderline table to 16 degrees what difference does it make? The answer is, it doesn't. SCT preached and screamed that their value file was as good as any mail order tune someone can get. Why can't SF be? If it set's the SOLF (your base_open_loop) to 11.5 what difference does it make?



I really must say, your making seriously outrageous, uneducated accusations. The Sniper unit is 95MM, the SCT is 90MM. You haven't tuned a Sniper meter have you? I've done a dozen or so of both. Since all I have is 2800 functions, my opinion is based soley off the inconsistency I have seen with the SCT meter. Again, your not a Sniper dealer, you can't make that comparison, I have.



Ya, absolutely. Would you if there wasn't a value file?


I think your downfall is you only seem to think SCT can do the job. I come from a world where there is more than one way to skin a cat. As the facts have been laid, I have extensive experience with CMR, Delta Force, and Calibrator level A3. Additionally, LS1Edit, and HPTuners are all programs that I have and use everyday. I'm not as fluent in the Chevy department, but I have some nasty 2.6/8 KB LS6's in my stable.

We all re-tune each others vehicles in that case.

lowflyingbird

Let me start over,
I installed a 01-up lightning system onto my (stock block) 1999 Expedition. I dropped down the boost by running a Harley sc pulley, so I'm looking at 6 psi. I have NO intention of raising it in the future. To get me around until I have the computer tuned I am corrently running with the Expeditions stock MAF and 19lb. injectors with a FMU inline to be safe. It runs really nice, no issues.I have NOT been getting on the gas, just from mildly driving I know its lean even before a boost condition. I will be installing the 90mm MAF and 42lb. injectors soon. I know that once I do so the vehicle will be most likely undrivable without being retuned.
Looking at the features of the Sniper special forces tuner, It looks like it can do what I need?????? It seemed to ask if a power adder was installed, injector size, MAF size, etc. I do not understand how it expects you to get the fuel curve correct?? If it showed a graph I'd understand, how can you adjust a/f ratio without knowing where its needed??
I have never done this before, I can get help from a computer (PC) Guru, on that end. SHOULD I ATTEMPT THIS????
I'm no rube, no dope. I was going to have the truck custom tuned. BUT, I live in NYC and the shop around here are like vampires. No one gives you a straight answer when it comes to cost . You can almost see them drool looking to sell you a bill of goods ,even before they start. I've heard,"Oh well we will dyno it, then street tune it to fine tune etc, etc, etc... I'm a mechanic too, and it looks like they will kill a day doing it and expect like $1000. in hourly labor.

PLEASE Help
Thanks
Lowflyingbird

PS, Would I just be buying the Sniper Special Forces, or will I then need to buy other stuff to go with it to get it working?

HollywoodRacing

All you would need is the Special Forces to do what you want to do with your Expedition, It also comes with Data Logging. You may also want to think about an AFR gauge. The reason the Special Forces asks you all of those questions is so it can correct the fuel curve so you shouldn't need to do anything after that point If you have any questions please feel free to contact us we will be more than happy to help you out!